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WP's Dragon Guide, part 02 by Paperiapina WP's Dragon Guide, part 02 by Paperiapina
Big File Warning!


Part 1: [link]
Part 3: [link]

Told ya I wasn't going to stop in the first part. My dragon wing ramblings still continue to bug you who are brave or stupid enough to read it through. Sorry for the text heavy start, in my files this whole thing is just one single collection of papers (this second part consisting of pages 6-10)

On a side note: I can has camera! 8D So I decided to put it in good use. Since my little scribble of my kingfisher skin is small, ugly and inaccurate, here's a photo of the real thing: [link] If you need/want more photos, just bark at me, and I'll snap some more.

More to come.

Also: Please, correct me if I'm wrong. But keep in mind that you must prepare some reasoning for it, as I am a geek with no life, who likes to think and discuss about these things.

Edit:
Oh, and before I forget: When I said in there that the head of the kingfisher is as long as the rest of the body, I meaned the part between the neck and tail. Tail is just feathers, I didn't include it in my sentence. (And probably made myself look pretty stupid).

EDIT 2:
Wow, I just have actually found a real life example of hind-leg wings. (well, they aren't suit for flying, but gliding, but nevertheless) Check this out! [link]
Just when you think you know pretty much of the real creatures, the mother nature comes and slaps you in the face by bringing up something like this. Awesome!
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:iconshadyserpent269:
Shadyserpent269 Featured By Owner Sep 15, 2012
I know this will sound idiotic but. Shouldn't dragonite not be able to fly?
Reply
:iconpaperiapina:
Paperiapina Featured By Owner Sep 16, 2012  Student General Artist
Dragonite the Pokémon as seen on official art could never ever be able to fly under the standard laws of physics. Pokémon work by magic.
Reply
:iconshadyserpent269:
Shadyserpent269 Featured By Owner Sep 16, 2012
Magic, i thought it was nintendo logic?

Also anyway of improving a dragonite? im trying to figure it out for my nuzlocke.
Reply
:iconhalfbreed:
halfbreed Featured By Owner Jun 22, 2011  Professional Traditional Artist
I think out of all the tuts I've collected over time, the sarcasm and humor in this one makes it doubly worth reading through! XD HAHA!
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:iconlostkavi:
Lostkavi Featured By Owner Jun 22, 2011
on the note on musculature, most dragons are drawn or at least referenced with a ton of chitenous plating, which would mute a lot of the muscle curves - but your points are taken well - that is, when tears are not in my eyes from laughing.
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:iconfurballofthefullmoon:
furballofthefullmoon Featured By Owner May 27, 2011  Student Digital Artist
Hahaha, ANYONE is better at push ups than I am. My record is .7, and that's with some generous rounding.
Reply
:iconfrazzled-niya:
Frazzled-Niya Featured By Owner Dec 19, 2010  Hobbyist Digital Artist
hehehe XD your small winged dragon trying to fly...*snickers* looks like a cute lil cow with pointy bits XDDD *shot*
Reply
:iconda-lizzard:
Da-Lizzard Featured By Owner Sep 30, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
Thank ou for saying bug wings don't work on vertebrates. It kind of annoys me when people put insectile wings on dragons.
Reply
:iconarkoonuva:
ArkoOnuva Featured By Owner Aug 28, 2009
I love where you are going with this except for one tiny thing. The "ancestor" Picture is a little annoying. I'm not genna be mean, BUT: That picture shows a squamate(member of squamata; order of snakes an lizards) Now, if that was a draconian ancestor, dragons would look more like winged lizards or like dracos (an extant species in the rain forest). SO, now seeing that, the appropriate theory would be to say that dragons are of the order Archesauria (dinosaurs) Which came before snakes and lizards. I love your rant so far apart from that one tiny little thing!
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:iconda-lizzard:
Da-Lizzard Featured By Owner Sep 30, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
The draco genus are agamids, related to, say, your everyday average bearded dragon. In no way are they archosaurs. I don't believe the similar Permian "flying" reptile was an archosaur either.
But I do agree that dragons should be archosaurs. But most all early reptiles looked like sprawling-gaited lizard things, so it just depends on how far back she's going.
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:iconarkoonuva:
ArkoOnuva Featured By Owner Sep 30, 2010
I see i see. I wrote that so long ago I had to review my original comment. (hugg)
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:iconda-lizzard:
Da-Lizzard Featured By Owner Sep 30, 2010  Hobbyist General Artist
Oops sorry ^^.
Reply
:iconarkoonuva:
ArkoOnuva Featured By Owner Sep 30, 2010
Mo biggie. (hurg)
Reply
:iconshiari:
shiari Featured By Owner Mar 22, 2011
To further dredge up this ancient comment string: The entire reason she drew it like that was most likely to show what the non-flying ancestor could have looked like. Birds, bats and pterosaurs didn't emerge fully winged from the waters after all. So that was just a basic limb orientation doodle. :P Also probably was drawn that way to prevent the "wings directly over the front limbs" issue that apparently pops up because people don't seem to realise that wings have scapulae too....
Reply
:iconpred-adopts:
Pred-Adopts Featured By Owner May 21, 2009  Student Digital Artist
Oh, this is brilliant ^^
I really like the detail you go into here 8D it's really helpful, WP!
It should be good for the flying canid species I'm adding into a book <3
much thanks for making this 8D
Reply
:icontala-twilight:
Tala-Twilight Featured By Owner Feb 11, 2009
Hm, you bring up an interesting point about flying muscles. Of course this now means I'll be having to redesign my pegasus-like equine species.
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:iconpaperiapina:
Paperiapina Featured By Owner Feb 12, 2009  Student General Artist
Really? Wow, that would be one of the awesomest things ever! You see, I've never seen a pegasus-like creature been draw in a way that it would look beliveable. One of my biggest dreams in DA has been to see a winged equine who's wings actually BELONG to its body. I would love to see what you'd come up with!
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:icontala-twilight:
Tala-Twilight Featured By Owner Feb 12, 2009
Yep, I haven't tried to draw them in years, but now I've been doing various anatomy studies of real equines and it wouldn't hurt to throw these in the mix. Mind, they still have magical influence, but while the wings appear, I'd like the attachment and muscling to be as believable as possible. I need to learn more about this phenomenon, do you have any other recommendations of sites that show the muscle anatomy of birds? I think I'd have to make them actually uphill to compensate for the heavy frontal muscling (finding a skeletal uphill horse is near impossible, lol, most are level or downhill).
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:iconpaperiapina:
Paperiapina Featured By Owner Feb 13, 2009  Student General Artist
That sounds good, yes. *nod nod*
Unfortunately I don't know websites that would teach animal anatomy, I think I'll have to google it, but I have used skullsunlimited.com site for bone reference. The site has a link "skeleton articulation" where you can see at least skeletons of an owl and a zebra. I think that it might be good to give the sternum a clear keel, like the owl has (although it doesn't show completely in the skeleton there. Half of it is cartilage tissue that doesn't stand well the bone cleaning process), and make it as big as you dare without ruining the aesthetics of your species completely. I have studied bird anatomy with my friend in more personal way. We once bought a whole barbecued chicken and studied it at the same time while we ate it. I can recommend it, specially if you like chicken (doesn't fit into vegetarian menu, though). It gives you a good lesson of what the muscles look like, where they are and how they connect to the body, and there's no danger of false information.

I'll keep my eyes open for any good websites if I stumble across any. I really hope I can be of any help. ^^

One question, though. What do the terms "uphill" and "downhill" mean in this context? I'm not native English speaker, so I'm not familiar with the terms. ^^;
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:icontala-twilight:
Tala-Twilight Featured By Owner Feb 14, 2009
"Unfortunately I don't know websites that would teach animal anatomy, I think I'll have to google it, but I have used skullsunlimited.com site for bone reference."
Oh, I didn't meant all animals, I wouldn't ask for that! :D I just meant good resources for birds specifically and how they work. I will check that site out!
"I think that it might be good to give the sternum a clear keel, like the owl has (although it doesn't show completely in the skeleton there. Half of it is cartilage tissue that doesn't stand well the bone cleaning process), and make it as big as you dare without ruining the aesthetics of your species completely." Lol, I have no clue what that is or means, so I have a lot of research to do.

"I have studied bird anatomy with my friend in more personal way. We once bought a whole barbecued chicken and studied it at the same time while we ate it. I can recommend it, specially if you like chicken (doesn't fit into vegetarian menu, though). It gives you a good lesson of what the muscles look like, where they are and how they connect to the body, and there's no danger of false information."
That sounds fun! And delicious. :D

"I'll keep my eyes open for any good websites if I stumble across any. I really hope I can be of any help. ^^" Definitely. Perhaps I can note you with my progress?

"One question, though. What do the terms "uphill" and "downhill" mean in this context? I'm not native English speaker, so I'm not familiar with the terms. ^^;"
Typically, when someone refers to a horse being uphill or downhill, they are referring to it's movement. Whether or not the horse appearances to be on an uphill incline when it moves out proudly, or if it seems more low to the ground. Dressage horses are prized for their uphill movement, where as cutting and cow sorting quarter horses are prized for the ability to dig down and deep, something that often requires a more downhill way of going.
I am talking about anatomically when I say uphill and downhill. Typically, people will often make the mistake of calling a horse uphill on the basis of whether or not its withers are higher than its croup/butt. If this were the case, thoroughbred racing horses would mostly be built uphill. This is actually a mistake, as most TBs are built throughly downhill, especially sprinters.
This thread is a nice resource for how to tell:
[link]

So far, no one on that forum has been able to find a horse actually built uphill. They are usually level or close to it, or downhill. Being extremely downhill puts the mass of a horse's weight on its front legs, which automatically carries the brunt of a horse's weight by nature. Being too downhill without knowing how to move in a positive frame can put harmful weight on a horse's front legs, and this is especially bad if the front legs are conformationally weak.

Anyway, I digress. My equine race has the ability to hide their wings on another dimension so to speak(that's where the magic comes in), but I want to design their anatomy to be as if they were to always have their wings. Since the wings would be located near the front, they would have the added stress of large extra limbs, and the muscles needed to compensate for them, besides the normal weight of a horse and their horns. Being built uphill shifts the brunt of the weight to the hindlegs. So that would be one of my modifications. I'd probably also give them thicker bones, which I may or may not make hallow.
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:iconpaperiapina:
Paperiapina Featured By Owner Feb 14, 2009  Student General Artist
Well, I googled a bit, but probably the best site that I found was a wikipedia article: [link]

"Lol, I have no clue what that is or means, so I have a lot of research to do."
Ah, sorry, I just recently found out the terms myself and wasn't sure how common they are in English. Not being a native speaker has it's limits. ^^" But sternum is a bone that goes in the middle of the ribcage, connecting left side ribs to right side ribs in front (or down side, if we speak about animals). Pectorals (the chest muscles) attach to it, and in most cases, like humans and most mammals as far as I know, it's pretty flat, but birds have a clearly visible projection. (Explaning things would be a lot easier if I knew where my dictionary was at the moment...)

Oh, I would very much like to hear what you can make up! ^^ Really, winged equine creature that is actually BELIVEABLE is so rare sight that I would definately be interesting in seeing yours! ^^ Even with having magic involved as you described. I think that's a plausible explanation that goes well in fantasy settings.

Ah, so that's what the words mean. You sound like you know your horses, and that's absolutely good thing in creature design! ^^
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:iconfoxofwar:
FoxOFWar Featured By Owner Feb 4, 2009  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
Holy... hello!

Been a while since I checked my dA, but decided to do it along with dusting off and cleaning of my writing table, something I hadn't done in a wee while...

*cough*

Anyway, pretty good(and humorous) first two part of our look in the dragon's anatomy(orsomesuchthingthatsomeoneclaimsexistsandstuff), and, I think this is preetty hawt stuff. Also, don't be afraid to rant in your tutorials, humorous rant often makes things more clear than you would think a wall-o-text would. If that made sense.

Anyway, cheerio and looking forward to see more :D
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:iconleonca:
Leonca Featured By Owner Jan 16, 2009  Hobbyist General Artist
Even though I never draw dragons this is still very interesting stuff to think about. =D
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:iconwstopdeck:
WSTopDeck Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2009  Hobbyist Digital Artist
:clap: Yes! I am still loving this tutorial :D
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:iconcat-heron:
Cat-Heron Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2009  Student Digital Artist
again, I thank you for posting this wonderful tutorial! Learning all of this and taking it in will really help me in the future =3 I will be proud to say I learned from you, this tutorial/guide is really amazing and teaches me about what really counts and matters. I can't thank you enough for educating me, this really does teach me so much! I swear, I learn more from this than I my art teacher :heart:
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:iconpaperiapina:
Paperiapina Featured By Owner Feb 12, 2009  Student General Artist
Wow, that is a huge compliment. o.o Thank yous! ^^ I'm glad I've been able to help people.
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:iconcat-heron:
Cat-Heron Featured By Owner Feb 13, 2009  Student Digital Artist
Very welcome :heart: your tutorials always enlighten me
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:iconmythorie:
Mythorie Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2009  Student Digital Artist
Great tutorial. If you want, I can type everything out with your draws into something cleaner and e-mail it to you.
Reply
:iconrbvgp:
RBVGP Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2009  Hobbyist General Artist
So, this means they have twice the armpits... then that means they need to use twice the underarm deodorant. ;)

Hm. Do dragons sweat? Maybe I don't wanna know. >.>

:bleh:
Reply
:iconunka:
unka Featured By Owner Jan 14, 2009  Professional General Artist
lizards don`t seat so i guess dragons would also not sweat.
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:iconmoto-princess:
Moto-Princess Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2009
These tutorials are great, I've learnt a lot!
Reply
:iconbeastofoblivion:
beastofoblivion Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2009  Professional Artist
Heyas, this might interest you.
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:iconpaperiapina:
Paperiapina Featured By Owner Feb 12, 2009  Student General Artist
Hell yeah, that sure does interest me! Thank yous! ^^
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:iconbeastofoblivion:
beastofoblivion Featured By Owner Feb 13, 2009  Professional Artist
Welcome! :D
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:iconxenothere:
Xenothere Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2009
I love your dragon tutorials. They of course appeal to anatomy freaks like me.

Also, I meant to mention on the last dragon guide where you were talking about bees, is that bees actually keep themselves aloft using vortexes stirred up by their wings (I saw it on TV, where they showed a bee flying in a smokey wind tunnel). Hummingbirds also fly using a similar mechanism. Whoever it was that justified tiny wings on big dragons because bees can fly, didn't understand the bee flight mechanics.
Reply
:iconpaperiapina:
Paperiapina Featured By Owner Feb 12, 2009  Student General Artist
Aww, thank yous! ^^

Oh, so THAT's how it works! Huge thank yous for the information, now I understand it better. ^^
Reply
:iconandaltno:
Andaltno Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2009  Hobbyist Writer
:worship:
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:iconsummonerwolf:
SummonerWolf Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2009
My only thought is that maybe that potbellied dragon up there only has wings for the scare factor. Some animals do that kind of thing.

Other than that, fantastic. I'm loving it so far.
Reply
:iconpaperiapina:
Paperiapina Featured By Owner Feb 12, 2009  Student General Artist
Having small wings not for flying, but for display purposes really is an excuse that I'm willing to accept. ^^ Good notice.
Reply
:iconlarka-the-wolf:
Larka-the-Wolf Featured By Owner Jan 13, 2009  Hobbyist
I love this tutorial and can't wait for the next part. I've never really had a go at drawing dragons as I have had the problem of where does everything go? This tutorial is really helpful and I may have a go at drawing dragons afterwards! :P
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